Sunday, February 28, 2010

File with leprechauns, elves, and the Easter bunny

There's been a lot of discussion, questioning, and 'splaining about the postdoc position: its purpose, why it's awesome, why it suckswhat it's really selecting for, how to change the experience... Personally, I have mixed feelings about the position, in general, and mine, in particular; I suspect this dichotomy comes across in my comments on other blogs. It's not something I have really discussed here, but since at least a few folks come around to learn something about this postdoc thing (not surprising, given I have subtitled this blog "A postdoc's tale"), perhaps it's time I did. Before I go into what the postdoc is about, though, let's talk about some of the big myths surrounding the postdoc.

Myth #1: You have to do a postdoc.
Negative, ghost rider. As a grad student nearing the end of your PhD work, you adviser will almost invariably talk to you about looking for a postdoc position--and from my colleagues' and my own experience, s/he will rarely mention other options. I suspect the reason behind this is that (a) it's what they know because it's what they did and/or (b) they assume all grad students are planning to head down the research track, if not the tenure track. If you have a pretty good idea of the path you want to forge, and you know it isn't the tenure track, then it's worth questioning this dogma. Talk to people in the positions you want to pursue; find out how important doing a postdoc is-or isn't.

Myth #2: There is only one type of postdoc-the academic research postdoc.
Most likely, when you hear the word "postdoc", you think of a PhD working at the bench in a lab with other postdocs and grad students at a research university. However, there are several different flavors of postdoc. You can do a research postdoc in a government lab or with a biotech or pharma company. If you're interested in teaching, there are postdoc fellowships and programs that mix teaching and research or focus on science education instead of research. You can even do a research postdoc at a predominantly undergrad institute; this grants the advantage of working with undergrads on a day-to-day basis. Plus some PUI departments, instead of hiring an adjunct for a semester, first offer postdocs the opportunity to fill open courses. I will confess that I know little about these other types of postdoc positions, as I am the typical research postdoc, but they do exist.

Myth #3: The only reason to do a research postdoc is to take a crack at the tenure track.
Another confession: I once thought that the only sensible reason for doing a postdoc was if you wanted to stay in academia and start your own lab. Sure, some people changed their mind along the way, but what was the point of doing a postdoc if you knew, upfront, that you didn't want your own lab? Turns out this is an absolutely ridiculous view. There are actually several career paths for which a research postdoc is preferred, if not required. Over lunch with trainees, the executive editor of a glamor mag (the science type, not the fashion type) commented that when hiring new editors, they liked seeing postdoc experience, especially in a field different from the applicant's PhD work. The reasoning, I gather, is that an editor should have some idea of how science is done and should be broadly trained, as a vast array of topics will be crossing his/her desk. So you go do a research postdoc, and after a year or two, you decide you're done with bench work; there are many places, both in and outside of academia, where that postdoc might help you get the job you really want.

These are major preconceptions that affect how grad students, postdocs, and advisers view and approach the postdoc. If they continue to be perpetuated, then it is going to be tough to have a productive conversation on the subject. What other urban legends about the postdoc need to be put to rest?

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the executive editor of a glamor mag (the science type, not the fashion type)...

I have this amazing image of Anna Wintour holding court at a conference table full of sweatshirt-clad grad students, discussing their career options, nose turned up at their dress. If only!!!!

Great addition to the discussion, BB! I think that finding that balance between "you don't have to do a postdoc" and "even if you don't want a TT job, a postdoc can be useful" is something that's going to be tricky for people who are considering the non-TT path. Like you suggest, grad students need to start talking and asking questions of those in non-TT fields. I think it's awesome that your department brought in the journal editor to talk to everyone. When I was in grad school we had a couple of field trips to some local biotechs, but that's all I can remember re: "alternate" career exposure. Students need more of these kinds of things, earlier and more often.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
You're quite right about the balance between the necessity and the utility of the postdoc. And it's something that most people in academic science know little about.

I wish our department was so open-minded as to highlight careers outside of academia. The journal editor was actually visiting for other reasons and requested to meet with trainees, thinking we might like to talk about the peer-review process or a career as an editor. It was a great conversation, and I think it's fantastic for alumni to try to make these sorts of connections with students and postdocs. I have had the opportunity to hear from several people on "alternative" career paths--editors, patent lawyer, scientific review officer for NIH, science writers... But I think my experience is pretty rare, and none of those interactions were actually initiated by the department I was in.
The dark gray background of your front page makes the black text unreadable.
1 reply · active 787 weeks ago
Going on a rampage against post backgrounds again, I see. I have been considering making some changes here, but it might not happen for a few days. Thanks in advance for your patience :D
i found the greatest insight by talking to people who were doing what i thought i might want to do in the future. the ones with a few years of experience have been through the track recently enough to have good advice on recent requirements to get into the field, but also have an idea of what it takes to make it once you're there. (the ones with a TON of experience may also be the ones making the hiring decisions, so that's another thing to consider!)

in a couple of the fields i'm considering, a postdoc is good because you've learned how to apply your skills to something new, how to function in a different environment and gained some more experience. and hopefully branched out a little from your phd work.

it's also something to do that pays the bills while you figure out wtf to do with your life.
I like the advice of talking to people who are doing what you want to do. I've also noticed more alternative science job clubs cropping up around different campuses, which is a great way to get this exposure as a student.
You can do a research postdoc in a government lab or with a biotech or pharma company.

How does being a postdoc at these places differ from just being a staff scientist w/a PhD hired straight out of grad school? Is it the emphasis on publishing? Because all else being equal, I say take the staff scientist job, at more than twice what a postdoc would make and without an expiration date. That gives you all the exposure to research you need for non-TT jobs.

I also know several staff scientists at national labs who started working there right out of grad school and after 7-10 yrs went straight into tenured positions at very respectable schools.
3 replies · active 787 weeks ago
I think the major reason for going in as postdoc vs. a staff scientist (at least in pharma) is largely based on the availability of positions--that's my impression at least. Although you're not making as much money as a staff scientist, pharma postdocs tend to pay much better than academic ones.

One thing about doing a postdoc in pharma is that often they often have policies in place that prevent them hiring a postdoc as a staff scientist. So if you want to stay in pharma, you might have to change sites or even companies (although this is pretty common in pharma as a staff scientist, these days too).
One thing about doing a postdoc in pharma is that often they often have policies in place that prevent them hiring a postdoc as a staff scientist.

That’s odd. Do you know the rationale behind this? I fail to see how this is in pharma’s best interest—but I’m sure it must be….
Not sure about the reasoning. As for pharma's best interests... things are just as political in pharma as in academia, so decisions are not always completely rational ;)
it's also something to do that pays the bills while you figure out wtf to do with your life

Absolutely... and it's something that can give you some space to recover from any traumas inflicted by the PhD without making decisions that make life harder for you should you decide, a year or two down the line, that actually the TT is for you. There is nothing wrong at all with taking a job which, for all the genuine gripes about pay, pays better than most "just something to do whilst I get my head together" type jobs, keeps your skills current (or adds to them) and allows you to keep reading, publishing etc. You've already made yourself 'less employable' by getting the PhD - a post-doc, in my humble opinion, does not make that worse.
3 replies · active 723 weeks ago
I agree that a postdoc is not a bad thing to do if you're still trying to figure out what you want to do. Hope raises a good point (below) regarding the employability of a PhD and what that is based on.
I would be somewhat careful about a person walking into a postdoc with that attitude, regardless of whether you end up in academic research or elsewhere. I've observed many postdocs in my department who clearly came in thinking they would just figure things out along the way and as a whole (does not imply anything about individuals) were not especially hardworking and productive. Recall that most careers that you will move on to required a letter of recommendation from your advisor, and that rec letters generally compare your work ethic and productivity to others in the lab.

There's nothing wrong with not being sure exactly what you want to do, but if that uncertainty saps your motivation to get your work done, your career may be impacted regardless of what path you take.
Hi there, BugDoc! Thanks for stopping by. You have a good point re: motivation/productivity. This is a critical piece for any postdoc, regardless of whether they know what they want to do or not.
You've already made yourself 'less employable' by getting the PhD....

Argh!!! This assertion is one of my pet peeves. Does anyone actually have any credible data to back this up? I have yet to see a job posting for any research position that I’ve been interested in (and I worked in between UG and grad school) that says “PhD’s need not apply.” If getting a PhD makes me overqualified for boring jobs that I don’t care about, all the better!
This is a really timely post for me since I'm at the point where I really do need to figure out what to do with my life. Although for me right now, I'm even trying to decide if I want to continue down this path of research or if I want to shift gears entirely. Whow knows. Anyway, as always, I enjoy your perspective - another thing to think about...
1 reply · active 787 weeks ago
It's certainly an important--and at times--daunting decision. As others have said, it can be incredibly useful to talk to people that are doing the sort of thing you think you might be interested in. Good luck!!
Hi Hope,____Sorry to bring out the 'aargh' reaction! Many disgruntled grad students and post-docs seem to be looking to change everything, talking about finding work with different rewards (more time to "have a life", more money, more geographic stability).____I have reasonably good grounds (from career service data and sources, as well as from a pretty large sample of friends and acquaintances who "leaked from the pipeline") to believe that PhDs make you less employable _for general professional jobs_. I should have distinguished between employability 'in non-academic science jobs' (e.g. scientific publishing, NGO/government agency role, funding agency, "industry" - in my field, often hard to enter, relatively poorly paid and long-hour-demanding - not much different in those senses from academia of whatever kind) and 'general professional roles' (e.g. accountancy, general management, non-science publishing). I think you would group the former as interesting work - in which case, get the PhD, do the post-doc, and network network network! - and the latter as 'boring jobs I don't care about' - I agree!
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A good student does his work on daily basis. He learns the lesson daily and memorizes that by heart. He concentrates his studies and learns them on daily basis. A good student never left his todays work on the next day.

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