Thursday, March 4, 2010

I hate it when you're right

Paramed  and I got into a not-so-little tiff last night. We were supposed to be enjoying a relaxing dinner. He was stressed from several insanely busy weeks, at both school and work. I was frustrated because of a number of things going on at work. During the course of conversation, I commented that I realized I needed to start thinking about a backup plan to the tenure track. Things went downhill from there.

That statement surprised Paramed because he'd never heard me express any doubt about where I would end up in my career. It was also not an easy thing for me to say aloud because, as irrational as it may seem, it felt like I was giving up a little bit--though when Paramed voiced that same sentiment, I denied it. He asked what I would do, if not what I've been working toward for years. I responded, "I don't know. There are a lot of options. But I do know that I don't want to stay at the bench if I'm just going to be treated like a set of hands the rest of my life."

"Do you feel that you're treated that way here?" he asked.

"Yes," I replied. "Guru has told me exactly what experiments to do. Before I can even finish a set of experiments and think about where to go from there, he's telling me the next set of experiments that I should do. I don't even know what the big picture is; I've asked and all I got was a bullshit answer." I should note here that as a grad student, I was expected to design my own experiments, to take ownership of my project. Bear still had a hand in guiding the project, but he did this largely by asking questions to get me thinking about it, recommending priority order for experiments that I designed, and sometimes suggesting experiments but in a more abstract manner, leaving the design and interpretation to me for the most part. Perhaps I am idealizing my past experiences, but I have always been more committed to and excited about projects that requires critical thinking (outside of technical troubleshooting) and interpretation. I thought that's similar to what I would get here, but it turns out Guru is a micromanager--and I don't respond well to micromanagement. Anyway, back to the story at hand...

The ensuing argument revolved around the following main points:
  • Paramed was pissed that Guru was making me doubt myself.
  • Paramed was pissed that I was not being assertive and implied that I should stand up for myself and call Guru out when he's spouting bullshit.
  • I was pissed that Paramed was telling me that I was doubting myself and that he was telling me what I should do.
  • I was pissed also pissed that he was not accepting my excuses for me not being assertive.
  • There was back and forth about the correlation coefficient between amount of listening vs. amount of ranting on both sides.
Now only if said argument had taken as little time to fizzle as it did to write out those points. Eventually we called a truce and we got over it.

Of course, after I had calmed down and started thinking about what was said, I realized what had really pissed me off so much: the fact that Paramed was right. Or rather that what he said was true. It kills me that I've fallen back into being so polite and diminutive that I don't take a stand, that I've allowed that monstrous self-doubt to creep back in. I felt that I left grad school as a confident scientist, but I no longer feel that. And it was tough to be forced to admit it. Paramed can be brutally honest--which is a great trait and yet often painful at the same time. I am reminded of an insightful post and am now at the point where I "sack the fuck up and feele extremely grateful for his penetrating insights". Next to decide what to do about it.

Comments (12)

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Ugh - I hate it when hubby is right. :(

I know it's difficult dealing with such a different mentor from your grad work, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. It just might take some time to learn how to stand up to Guru, especially if Bear was more easy-going. The most difficult aspect of my postdoc experience has been learning how to deal with the very different mentoring style of my current adviser from my graduate adviser. Of course, it's also taught me a lot about what kind of mentor I want to be.
3 replies · active 786 weeks ago
This is something I've been struggling with for many months now. Bear wasn't exactly easy going--in fact, he was a downright pain in the ass sometimes. There were times that I gor pretty angry with him. I think my biggest problem is that I've let the fact that I'm the "new" postdoc (just started 2nd year) in a new field intimidate me in interactions with Guru. I've definitely got to figure something out, though, because I can't stand for the status quo to continue for another 2+ years.
Spiny Norman's avatar

Spiny Norman · 786 weeks ago

The first year of a postdoc is almost always hard, especially if you've changed fields (as you almost certainly should do). You go from being a world expert in your corner of a field to, well, not being one. Independence is not something that you establish once and it's done. It's something that you must do over and over again.

A HUGE part of what you must learn as a postdoc is that you CAN start over, and succeed.

Indeed, *that* is why our department does not even consider hiring people who are straight out of grad school.
Thanks, Spiny. The first year was definitely very hard for me. I've started over... I guess the next two years will tell if it's a success.
That sucks. I felt the same (without spousal yelling) towards the late second half of my last postdoc. I had gone from a joy of a phd program to the NIGHTMARE HELL POSTDOC FROM HELL (+ extra NIGHTMARES). I grew strong and walked away and finally found another good gig. but he micromanaged and critiqued so much (trying to get tenure) it killed my self-confidence and my career. I now no longer work at the bench :(

I wish all the best as you explore your options.
It sounds like this is an argument that was worth having, if for nothing else than that it gave you a different perspective and perhaps a little insight into your relationship with Guru. I'm going to go ahead and assume that Guru is a big important d00d who's not used to being challenged by his trainees, especially relatively new ones. This can be scary, and I can understand that you don't want to piss him off. But at the very least, you should have some grasp of the big picture of your project!!! This is nuts. Do you think he'd let you read the grant proposal that's supporting your work? That could be a good place to start. This is important, because if you do want to stay on the academic track, you're going to have to come out of your post-doc with a great story, not just a series of experiments.

I do think it's great, though, that you're starting to think about "alternative" (god, I hate using that term) paths this early. I kind of wish I'd started then, too.

P.S. Love your new look!!
We ALL go through this at some point. It takes some time to adjust to a new research environment and get comfortable enough where you can make you own calls. Talk with Guru about what Dr. Becca suggested, reading the grant proposal. That would not only give you a feel for the big picture, but also what a successful proposal looks like, which might turn out to be even more helpful down the road.
I also really like Dr. Becca's suggestion of asking to read Guru's grant. Not only could it give you insight, but it could also show Guru that you really are interested in the project (especially his perspective of the project). It takes time to earn respect from a new PI, but it can happen. Until then, wine and chocolate really do help! (And maybe a punching bag...)

Oh, and thinking about alternatives really can be a good thing. I believe strongly that holding on too tightly to the TT ideal with no other alternatives makes scientists too scared to take risks.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Dr. O, I think you might be onto something regarding the stronghold on the TT ideal vs. risk taking. Many of us hellbent on the TT track are thinking more about publications (preferably glamor mag ones) than about curiosity, trying to find the surefire project (as if such a thing exists). During the course of our heated conversation, Paramed asked me, not for the first time either, "Where's your passion?" Probably what I should be doing at this point is focusing more on what interests me about the science, what's exciting and new, than how to maximize publications during the next two years.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions. Dr. Becca, you are correct in assuming Guru is an "important d00d who's not used to being challenged by his trainees". I like the idea of taking a look at the grant; it's something I've been thinking about anyway. Things I have to work on: not shutting down when I get frustrated or upset during meetings with Guru, making sure that I get my points across clearly (because evidently I'm not always doing that), and doing what I can to ensure that I get clear answers in return.

Regarding the "backup plan" (another term I hate), I feel like it's a good thing to start thinking about now. And actually so does Paramed. He made the (good) point, though, that I should have a backup plan because it's the smart thing to do, not because I'm intimidated.
I think you've hit on something key in the comment about focusing too hard on maximizing publications. But is that incompatible with being passionate about your contribution to the science? I think both of them are necessary.

My boss gave me a copy of the grant proposal covering my stuff and I found it tremendously enlightening. But it's still taken months for me to figure out how this fits in to the other themes in the lab and the field as a whole. I wonder if part of the difference is that during grad school, you're being evaluated specifically on your ability to frame your research in the broader context (I don't know about everywhere, but that's the case for me) so there's an incentive to the PI to make sure their student can do that. Of course, then you hit postdoc and that goes away...

If you figure out a strategy for not being intimidated/bullied (wrong word?) by Guru, please share it. I for one would love to know, seeing a lot of myself in your description of your interactions with him.

They say (sorry, not very scientific, but I don't have anything more concrete than that) that people who feel like they could walk out any day are happier in their jobs, even if the work sucks. Having some idea of what the so-called "backup plan" could be will make you more confident, even if you decide to pursue TT. Having no options isn't good, but I think that feeling like you have no options is just as bad.
1 reply · active 786 weeks ago
is that [focusing too hard on maximizing publications] incompatible with being passionate about your contribution to the science?

I don't think publishing in general is incompatible with a passion for research, and I certainly don't mean to imply such. In fact, I think part of being passionate about your contribution to science is being excited to share your results with the scientific community. However, in my lab (and I think across the institution), there is an obsession with publishing in glamor journals (Science, Cell, Nature...), trying to turn everything into a Glamor Mag publication, it seems. I recognize that these days it's almost all but a job requirement for TT positions in biomedical sciences to have a publication in one of those journals . But I'm not sure that the mentality of "I have to get a Science paper before I leave" should go into deciding what experiments or what project to do. It may be a naive or simplistic view, but if you're excited about your research and you're working on an interesting problem, then you're likely to be more committed and more productive leading to more/higher quality publications.

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